Candidate James Taylor’s campaign canceled his interview with StateImpact and did not respond to requests to reschedule.
Beth Wallis: Thank you for joining me. First off, what do you think is the greatest challenge Oklahoma teachers face today?
Robert Franklin: Oh my goodness, Beth, thank you for asking that question. I get that question a lot. I think number one is, “Are you willing to stay the course with us, be that partner, and help us rebuild this teacher workforce and this pipeline? Because we just don't have enough of us that are well trained and retained and work through that long process and don't give up on us.” And so, I think teachers are just looking for some hope and some ambassadors to celebrate the work that they've been doing. So that is a major priority, and we're willing to do that because we've been doing it for a long time.
Wallis: So, recently, new numbers came out from the State Department of Education showing emergency certifications and the percentage of emergency certifications. Do you see anything hopeful about those numbers? Or what do those numbers say to you?
Franklin: What it tells me is, I think people have — the alarm bell has gone off — and I think that people are realizing we must make some shifts. I think there was a partnership that Northeastern State University is excited about. And the State Department of Education has now collaborated under the leadership of Lindel Fields to say, “Okay, here's some emergency certification support, get after that work, and let's begin to train those people.”
Sometimes they've been emergency-certified for as much as five and six years, without any additional training. That cannot continue to happen. Even if you are a loving and kind and literate colleague, there's no doubt that you can be better and more effective in the work as a teacher if you're more trained and more targeted in that effort.
And, so much like a ball player, there's not a ball player that I know that's at a really high elite level who doesn't continually practice, doesn't continue to try and elevate their game. And so, in order to retain teachers, you have to train teachers. In order to train teachers, you have to invest in how that training works. And again, I'm excited about the fact that the State Department understands that and that the legislators are starting to hear that and that we can begin to make some inroads with this.
Wallis: What do you think is the greatest challenge Oklahoma school administrators face?
Franklin: Well, certainly I think that the whiplash that we go through sometimes of, there's a new set of laws that get relayed after every legislative session. And sometimes those take us from one side to another side. And [that’s] what I would consider to be that whiplash of administrators trying to lead does [create] a distraction sometimes, even as simple as recess.
We've all of a sudden complicated one of the most simple things that perhaps schools do, and that's recess. And we've complicated it into a narrative that says, “How are we going to do this? How will we make this a part of the school day? Or how do we extend the school day? How do we reroute buses? How do we redesign teacher oversight of who does the recess?” Well, it's largely the teachers that are doing the recess duty.
So again, I've said to anyone who's an investor — I'm not, I wish perhaps I had the resources to be an investor — that maybe the thing that we should invest in more in Oklahoma is invest in Band-Aids. Because longer recess means we're going to have to hand out more Band-Aids.
Again, it is a righteous initiative to say we want little ones to have more free play, because we are really packing a lot into their school day, and we all know that children deserve that opportunity and are better when they get their wiggles out. We understand that very clearly. But somehow now we've made it complicated, and that's just a typical example of what happens when legislators and educators and administrators are not all on the same page. And it's not that people are not trying; it's just sometimes we're not targeted.
Wallis: I wanted to talk more about that recess bill. Obviously schools are really concerned about it. And to explain it, it's a new law mandating 40 minutes of recess. The State Department's interpretation of the law is that it can't be counted as instructional time, which has caused those schedules to have to expand. Would your administration review that interpretation?
Franklin: I think so. I think we have to go back to the intent. What was the intent? The legislation, you know, obviously was happening in the machinations of probably [a] last-minute legislative session. Perhaps if we've not got it [exact], it's worthy of going back and looking at what the intent was, versus how the language unfolded. And I think we try to get back to what the intent of the language was.
And so I think Representative [Rosecrants] has been pushing on this initiative for probably six, eight, nine years. I don't think he's happy with how it all kind of unfolded.
But again, you know, you don't want to steal someone's legislative thunder, but you do want to make it practical, and you do want to make it applicable, and you want to make it manageable. And I think it's worthy of us reworking that.
Wallis: The legislature recently passed a major overhaul to the Strong Readers Act this last legislative session. It sets up a multi-tiered system of supports for intervening, uses literacy coaches throughout the state to teach educators how to instruct on literacy, and in 2027, we'll start retaining third graders for low test scores. How would your administration aid schools navigating this change?
Franklin: Where I think we have to basically say, how do we design or refine the work that the State Department of Education is doing to implement that work with fidelity? And I think we're going to have to be able to put some resources out to some regional areas, into the far-flung areas, so that those experts can get there and be more relevant and more connected to the real work at hand, rather than going to [the state department building] and getting that resource. And then try to take it back to a far-flung school district.
Also making sure that we get the right coaches in spaces. Something that really is frustrating for teachers and educators is if you take your very best teachers right now and you take them out of the classrooms to be coaches, there's a trade-off of: you lose your best teachers. Because it’s like, “Oh my gosh, [these are] the ones that are elevating our scores the strongest.”
But again, I think there's a place for teachers who want to be in this space, who can do this work really effectively, to be able to say, can we backfill that emptiness that we would take from your loss in the classrooms. So again, you don't want to steal your very best teachers to then go become coaches, but you also almost have to rely on your best teachers as coaches.
So there's a way I think that we can use the technology to our advantage as well. Perhaps pay some stipends to some people that are amazing experts and figure out how the technology, which used to be kind of clunky back in the era where we started using talkback television and some of those things — I mean, you guys know how quickly you can connect to somebody in an online environment these days and be very virtual and be relevant and be what you consider to be deeply connected to a teacher and build a friendship, that a coach perhaps doesn't have to come completely out of the classroom to continue to do that kind of work. So I think there's some strategies that we can use to make that happen.
Wallis: Under former State Superintendent Ryan Walters, many critical staff left the State Department. Do you have a plan for placing experienced educators in positions to provide services to schools?
Franklin: Oh, my goodness, I hope so. I hope so. I don't want to be presumptuous to think that I've already won the position by any stretch of the imagination. But I have 44 years of past experiences and past relationships and connections in a lot of different spaces. So I'm hoping that we can rely on that to bring the right people to the table to help us get this work done if we are fortunate enough to advance. And so from that standpoint, I do know what building strong teams looks like because I've done this work.
That would be a high priority because, again, without those kind of what I would consider to be tested and thoughtful leaders and educators in that space, then oftentimes teachers that are emerging to try and elevate their game don't feel as connected to someone that they can't perhaps see as an expert in that field. It doesn't need to just be a warm body in that role. It needs to be somebody who's very relevant and seasoned and has experience that has been tested as a successful mentor. And I think we can do that in short order.
Wallis: Your opponent has questioned your conservative bona fides. How do you respond to critics who say you aren't conservative enough to be Oklahoma's state superintendent?
Franklin: Yeah, a couple of things that are frustrating with that. When they start to talk about my faith, that makes it very personal, and that's not fair. That is not a fair criticism at all. When you're talking about, "Am I Democratic enough? Am I Republican enough?" What I go back to is, "Are you about public education enough?”
So, I see the world from a big lens. I've not always been a Republican, but I've not always voted Democratic. So the reality check is, I try to vote for people, not particularly parties. I've mentioned this before, that I've been married for 47 years. I don't see everything exactly the same as my wife, but we've been completely devoted to one another, and we would die for one another tomorrow. But yet we know what our North Star is, and we know our goal is and stay connected through the thick and the thin.
And so, from a place of being conservative, yes, I am conservative by my very nature, but from a point of extreme, what I consider to be political divides, I'm not into that nature. There's no really reason [for that in] this position. I'm not running for a congressional seat. I'm not running for senator or a local representative or those types of things. I'm running for the state superintendent of public instruction.
We need to take the divisiveness and the political rancor out of that position and get to the work of elevating student outcomes, working on readiness skills, job readiness skills for the young people that we're serving, and see if we can't help drive this economy accordingly and build a workforce that we can depend on. That's my goal, and that's my effort.
So, for the critics that say, “He's not conservative enough to do that,” I'm not really sure what that looks like. For those that say that, “He's liberal enough to not do that,” I don't know what that looks like. But for those that have seen the work that he has done over the last 44 years, and [say], “Yeah we kind of like that, and that's probably a really healthy thing. Let's rely on that work he has previously done to show us what you consider to be a leader, that we can say we believe in that.”
Wallis: What does it look like to depoliticize this position?
Franklin: Yeah, I just think we just described that. I don’t have an agenda that I’m being pulled by [from an] outside entity that says do it this way, do it that way. I don't owe anyone anything. This is not a hobby for me to run. This is not my fifth time of running for a political office. I have no aspirational goals beyond this. In fact, this one came late to be honest with you.
My only goal is to focus on students and those educators and the schools, and the communities that we're serving. That's the goal. So, I don't know how to unpack it differently than that, to say, I don't owe anyone anything. I don’t have a political agenda to try and force into the mix. It just seems totally unnecessary and a waste of what I consider to be a really precious time and resources.
Wallis: Do you think the office has been damaged by the Walters administration? How so?
Franklin: Absolutely.
Wallis: How so?
Franklin: Absolutely. You don't call people names. You don't threaten people. You don't take action against people without even asking questions. You don't do that kind of work in that space. And again, that's what happens when you put an untested leader in a space that sometimes you wish you had [do-]overs.
And I think many voters that voted for him said, “Oh, I didn't know it was going to unfold like that,” including yours truly. He's a friend. He's a colleague. I didn’t expect him to lead like that. And so, I just don't think we take chances.
Number one, we don't have the resources. Number two, we don't have the energy. And number three, the business and industry stakeholders that are really behind this initiative of trying to get a tested season leader in this space, the parents that are saying, “We don't need someone trying to make headlines,” the teachers for the love of Pete that are saying, “Please don't be mean and disrespectful to us. We're trying as hard as we possibly can,” — no one has time and energy for that. And so, I'm not about that work. I never have been.
Wallis: You were one of only two members of the Statewide Virtual Charter School Board that voted against the application for the St. Isidore of Seville Catholic Virtual School. Is there a place for religion in public schools?
Franklin: Not in public schools. But there is a space for religion in every, every aspect of what made this country great. No ifs, no ands, no buts. My spiritual faith is a driving place for me. And so, a lot of people want to make this about a spiritual warfare. This has nothing to do with that. Our constitution says that we keep those things separate. It is far too heavy of a burden for us to foist spiritual leadership onto the back of a third-grade teacher. That's for parents and spiritual leaders, and their faith leaders to guide that work and to guide their journey. It is not fair to put that on the backs of teachers and educators. And so let's keep that where it belongs.
And our churches are on every street corner in Sand Springs. We have lots of different ways that people practice their faith. And that's what makes America great. And I think we need to keep it that way.
And so when I voted against injecting an indoctrination of a particular faith as a public school, I simply was trying to follow the constitutional provisions that went along with that. And I also was trying to say, if we do it for one, then perhaps we're doing it for all. And there are many faiths that don't align with the larger populace. And let's not put ourselves into that dangerous proposition. Let's not do that to one another, because the one step that you make today could perhaps, three and four years later, be one of those things that you wish you had [do-]overs.
And thank goodness, our state supreme court voted accordingly. And we went to the U.S. Supreme Court, and they voted on a 4-4 split. So, I don't think this war or debate or decision is over. Because, I think, there are a lot of people — and I've learned this now, I didn't know it at the beginning when I was serving as a chair of this board — this has been going on for a really long time and there's a lot of people who have political clout who want to see, again, what I would say [is] religious indoctrination as a public school option.
And I just think it's a dangerous proposition. I don't think it is what our country was based on. Others say, “No, that's the foundation of our country.” And again, the question is, is there only one faith in Oklahoma? And I think the answer is no. Many people have a lot of different kinds of faith that they experience. I know what my faith is, and I don't want to foist mine onto you. I would rather you be drawn toward my faith. And you see that through the work and the way I treat others. I would want you to see it that way, and then you would say, “Tell me why that kind of faith walk is important to you.” And that's a whole different process than me putting that into a public school.
Wallis: As a former special educator, what do you think Oklahoma should improve about the way it supports special education students?
Franklin: Oh my goodness. Number one, we have to have more special education educators, because today they're like unicorns. You cannot find a well-trained, seasoned special education teacher unless you pluck them up from another school district. And that's kind of like the NIL in sports, that we all just say, “That's not right.”
The reality is, we're just not training nearly enough special education teachers. It's hard, number one. Number two, the expectations are very, very heavy. The federal oversight and bureaucracy that we have. And the way that it's funded and supported is definitely, definitely short. And so what that means is parents have stronger, higher demands, and we have fewer people to help meet those demands. And so that divide just keeps getting bigger and bigger. It is perhaps one of the biggest crises that we possibly have. I've said it many times over.
I started my special education teaching career in the Hissom Memorial Center long ago. There were three large institutions in the state of Oklahoma. And that was the only services. Students didn't even get a chance to go to public education. So, I would know what no choice looks like. It wasn't the right strategy. There were large institutions built on bureaucracies and sometimes antiquated, particularly if you look in the rearview mirror, antiquated styles of delivery. There were no community opportunities for the students who lived there.
And so, we began to try and figure out how, as educators working in that space, that we could create more of those kinds of community activities. And so, a couple of colleagues of mine and I, we helped co-found what's called Make Promises Happen during summer school, and it's right between Guthrie and Edmond. It's still going on today at Camp Twin Cedars. I'm very proud of that work. It is called Make Promise Happen. Google it up.
And if you have a high school student or a college student who wants to learn to be a volunteer and work and try and practice their skills and, moreover, serve people with disabilities, it is a great place to come and serve and be a volunteer. And we've seen hundreds, if not thousands, of young people come serve as volunteers that are now special education teachers, occupational therapists, physical therapists, we've got a couple of them that are physicians, nurses, they’re moms and dads. It's just been one of the best chapters of our lives. And some of my very best friends have disabilities, and they've been to our weddings, and we've been to their funerals.
And it makes me very proud to say that Oklahoma can continue to do better by including people with disabilities, because about 18 to 20% of the people that we're serving today in Oklahoma in schools are on individualized education plans. They're on IEPs. So, it is a big gap, and we have to continue to resource that effectively, because obviously we've not received enough federal support to make that happen, and yet the needs are still there. So, I think we can do some things regionally and collectively to improve that.
Wallis: Does that mean you would go to the legislature and ask for more money for these sorts of things, or what would that look like under your administration?
Franklin: How do we share those kinds of resources? So you know that there are co-ops. There are some students who reside in one school district, but because they don't have the right staff, then they will actually send their dollars and support to another school district to try and help support that. I think we can collaborate on how that might work more effectively. Share the services of a physical therapist, share the services of an occupational therapist, speech therapist.
I know a school district that's in a suburban school that's a very high highly ranked school, they have openings in speech therapy as we speak today that they cannot fill. And you're thinking, okay, the parents are going to clamor for that, the IEPs demand that, that it's an expectation. And yet we don't have the support to do that. So where do we go get that? We have to then outsource that, which means we have to pay a premium for that, which means, oh my goodness, we're further and further behind in regard to how we're spending the dollars and the resources that are so precious and few.
Wallis: Last question, why should Oklahomans vote for you?
Franklin: Oh my goodness. Because I'm a tested, seasoned, certified leader. I've been doing this work for a long time. I've overseen large, large multi-million dollar budgets. We've never had a hiccup on any of those. We've never come up short, failed an audit, none of that. I've worked in collaboration with business and industry to put in partnerships with schools through the CareerTech system. I understand this work and how important it is to create an atmosphere where labor conquers all. That is our state motto, and I believe in that. And we're committed to that work.
I come from farmers and welders. The grit and determination that comes from hard work and from farm life is ingrained in me, and it's what I'm committed to do. And I've told this story many, many times. I had a bout with testicular cancer when I was 24. Almost lost my life: two nasty surgeries, nine months of chemotherapy. And I ask myself often, “Why did I get a chance to survive?” And my father, who was killed in a welding accident when he was 24, didn't. What I say is this, what I believe is this: I just don't want to waste moments. I don't wanna waste moments on anger, frustration, divisiveness, people that treat each other with disrespect. I want to serve people.
It's the work that I've always committed to, and it's the work I believe in, and so it makes it easy. The politics, whole nother matter, I'm not good at that. I'm really not good at that particular aspect of things. But in regard to the work at hand, I do know how to do this work, and I think we can bring people to the table and collectively work together and go further than we can if we just go individually. And I'm really hopeful that that can happen, and hopefully we can continue this hopefulness and this anticipation of what the election process looks like and get people out on [Aug. 25].
Because notoriously, we just don't show up very well on [runoff elections] because schools are in session and children need to go to ball practice and throwing french fries in the backseat to feed them on the way home, and all of a sudden it's five minutes before the polls close, and you go, “Oh my goodness!” And so anyway, if people can plan ahead and try to make that a priority, it'll probably be a good opportunity for us to exercise the right to vote. And I would just hope the Oklahomans can take that challenge and let's go.
Wallis: Republican candidate for State Superintendent of Public Instruction, Robert Franklin. Thank you for joining me.
Franklin: Absolutely. What a great honor. Thank you for having me.
This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity.
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