Beth Wallis: Jennettie Marshall, thank you for joining me. So candidate Mike Mazzei is the Republican nominee for governor. If he wins, how do you look forward to working with him? And do any of his policy statements give you pause?
Jennettie Marshall: I look forward to working with either candidate for governor. However, what I am looking into is what they're presently saying — when we talk about Mike Mazzei, something that gives me pause, and I think that a simple conversation will take care of that — he has indicated he's going to appoint a state of Oklahoma literacy director. And that gives me pause because I think, I believe it sends a negative message to Oklahomans.
You have a new state superintendent coming in, you have a governor coming in. And if he is already appointing someone without giving the new state superintendents an opportunity to get in and assess and make necessary changes, well, the message is, “I don't trust the State Department of Education to do its job. I don't trust the state superintendent.”
Wallis: Because the State Department already has a literacy division, correct?
Marshall: Twenty positions within that literacy division. What we find often in organizations is that the positions are there, but they're underused, underutilized. That could be what is happening. You know, I will never know that until I actually get in the office, then I can begin to weigh that.
Wallis: Mazzei wants to move school board elections to general election dates and require candidates to declare their political party. As a former school board member, is that a policy you support?
Marshall: I don't believe it will help with school board elections. I believe the only thing that will help with school board elections, to get people to actually weigh in as informed constituents, is that we do more education around school boards. Moving it to November will simply give more people to vote for, but I guarantee what will happen is that those constituents will go there and when it comes to school board, because it's not viewed as important as others, it will be an “eeny, meeny, miney, moe.” And they will select it. Because we can look and see that that's what's been happening.
Wallis: Do you think the office of state superintendent was damaged by the Walters administration?
Marshall: Very much so. I've been to the State Department a couple of times since Mr. Walters’ departure. And looking into the eyes of those that are still employed there, you still see a level of fear and uncertainty as to how they should respond, what they should be doing. And so it damaged the department.
And I believe that has hindered some progress. Mr. Fields has done a great job in trying to restore morale. Now we need to restore morale in the general community by electing the right person to go in and serve and redirect the department.
Wallis: And how do you redirect?
Marshall: By regaining trust, by having real conversations after listening all over the state to individuals, whether they were educators, community workers, chamber, parents, students — people say that they did not have a voice. Their presence was not represented at the table. So reestablishing those connections, making people feel that they are valued. And then implementing some strategies to turn education around.
Wallis: Can you go into some of your strategies? What do you feel like are the primary platforms that you are running [on]?
Marshall: One of my key strategies — and today I'm walking on a cloud. Just a couple of days ago I was in Thackerville, and I see that my opponent has had [the] opportunity to go on my web page and view my rollout of my plan. And he has also touted wanting to do regional service centers, which of course, I'd already put out there. And then today, this morning, the state school board voted to put $7 million into regional service centers, which tells me Mr. Fields has also been on my web page and found value in that.
Wallis: Can you explain what those regional service centers do?
Marshall: So what we are looking at, let's say you have schools in Boise City or Guymon. When those individuals that are educators there have to come to training, they're traveling five, six hours, one way. They have to get a room, meals, all of that, and then another five, six hours back in the opposite direction.
The other part of it is, when you have constituents in those districts, what happens is that they call the State Department with a complaint, and nobody takes ownership. It's just logged in as a complaint and never responded to. You also have Chamber of Commerce and others that do the same.
So the service centers will be in place. I will assign, if elected, a regional lead to man that service center along with the initial staffing. They will be there to do the PR, to also be the first partaker of receipt when there are concerns or complaints, whether it's from educators or constituents at large. And they have 30 days to process that. If they can't, and I want to continue to say there's no blame, no shame, I don't want a regional lead to think that “I'm in trouble.” But if they can't, it may be that it needs to be a teamwork effort, and they kick it up to the State Department.
Then when we look at our educators, when they have to go to professional development. Professional development can take place right there in their region. For some, they don't have to stay at a hotel. They can go back home for those two days. Some, they will still have to travel, but the length of the travel, and [time] away from their education environment and their families will be greatly impacted in the best way. Those are measures that that center has set up for.
Always, the State Department always having contact with community, ownership being placed on items that need to be addressed, and a tracking system to ensure that we are addressing those items and making community feel that they're a part of it.
The other task for those regional centers is that they will be having monthly meetings within the communities that make up that region to ensure continuous contact. We are calling it a “continuity of care,” and that's what people have lacked, that continuity of care.
Wallis: So recently, Tulsa Public Schools voted to close 17 school sites, and you were at that meeting, I heard you speak at that meeting. And this isn't something that is new to you, as you were around during the Gilcrease [closure] as well. What role, if any, do you think the state has in aiding these school districts or shepherding them through these kinds of problems?
Marshall: I can speak specifically to Tulsa, and I'm sure that some of the same components are part of it. The state, first of all, needs to set up an accountability system. With Tulsa, there has been no accountability, as evidenced by the findings of the state auditor which I pushed for.
And then we have yet to hear the district talk about how they got to that place. Now we can talk about birth rates and we can talk about the fact that enrollments are down, but are we talking about the specifics or narratives?
Are we talking when you have an administration that is really close to hitting that 5% cap and they're working with six figure salaries? And so to avoid hitting the cap you demote them to a business class but they keep those six figures which keeps that money still in play? Plus having to put other people in positions? It's a management issue, it's truly a management issue and we shouldn't have to look at that.
Are we talking about, with Tulsa Public Schools, with its declaration of being an open district, the fact that, you as a citizen, if you have a child and you want to enroll your child in school, you can actually enroll your into a charter or private school, virtual school.
And we also know that you look at per pupil accounting and the monies that are going to school districts based on that. So you have a district participating in taking children out of the district, which impacts the budget.
So there are a lot of things that were never discussed in that consolidation or those school closures that deeply concerns me. And for any district to turn to, to clean up a mess, turn to an abuse of our constituents by closing those community schools — which mean more than just their schools. For some, that's their home away from home — not really be forthright and transparent about everything. That's problematic. So I believe that the State Department needs to put some standards in place that will actually address accountability and transparency. So when these things happen, where we have to look at consolidating or closing schools, everything is on the table.
Wallis: So do you think that Tulsa shouldn't be sponsoring charter schools?
Marshall: Well, I can't say that because state law says that the local public schools have to sponsor. Sponsoring a charter school, but yet using the tax dollars of people, the constituents, to actually take them out of the public school into the charter — a charter school has its own board, its own setup. The only thing really that the public school looks at is that we are going to sponsor. We check your suspension rates, we check your financial plan to see that you're on track, and then we continue to renew.
The problem is, if I'm helping you take students out of my school, that's going to overall impact my ability to continue to function. So there needs to be a fine line drawn between that. It's not [an] instance of sponsorship and not sponsoring. It's an issue of, number one, following the law that public schools must sponsor if they're going to be in existence or either they have to go through the state. That's a matter of fact. That's law. It's wise financial management on the part of the school district.
Wallis: You've joined former Tulsa Public Schools board member, E’lena Ashley, in a lawsuit against the school board concerning discussions outside of an open meeting. That case is still ongoing. Some view this as aligning yourself with Ashley, who was a supporter of Ryan Walters. How do you respond to that?
Marshall: I responded to that by saying five years before E’lena Ashley came on the board, I was asking for an audit. In fact, I asked for a forensic audit within my first 30 days of service in 2017. I have always pushed forward for things to be done correctly. E’lena Ashley comes in that fifth year, she listens to the same things I've been saying over and over again for five years, and as a colleague on the board, she says, “I agree.”
That had nothing to do with Ryan Walters. That had everything to do with two colleagues on a board of seven having conversation, listening as we all speak in board meetings, reviewing agendas, and understanding that something is wrong and being willing to stand up and make a hard decision. To go forward with something that is a corrective action that we can do the right thing. That's it.
Wallis: Candidate Cyndi Munson is the Democratic nominee for governor. If she wins, in what ways are you looking forward to working with her and what are your concerns?
Marshall: Leader Munson, I've known her since I'm going to say around 2016. I've seen her as a strong advocate for education through the years. I can't really say that I have a lot of concerns and that's simply because I have not heard her complete platform on education. I know that she has spoken about addressing the issue of vouchers and doing away with, through executive order, the vouchers. So at this point, I can’t say that I have a real concern until I hear more on her education plans.
Wallis: As state superintendent, you aren't a lawmaker, but you can influence policy through rulemaking. Are there any administrative rules you want the department to adopt or change?
Marshall: I can't say it at this time.
Wallis: What policy initiatives do you want the Oklahoma State Legislature to take up next spring during the legislative session?
Marshall: One of the huge projects that I want the state legislature to consider, really consider, is more funding, particularly — although the districts set the salaries for their teachers — there has to be additional funding that is coming from the legislature. And I think we need to take a deep dive into how Oklahoma can remain the lowest in pay for educators and expect for us to move forward.
Because we are in a crisis with our educators and having non-traditionally certified individuals in classrooms. And it's not to throw cold water on those individuals for volunteering for that position. But a great educator friend of mine helped me understand, the fact is, because we're in a crisis, we have to have those individuals, but to make them stronger as educators, we also have to have them aligned with strong site leaders and strong teachers around them to mentor them.
Well, guess what? That was what, four years ago, when she went through that process of helping educate me. Now we have those strong site leader and those strong teachers retiring or leaving the district. So it leaves those educators, those new-wave, nuance educators without a strong support system. So that is the big ask that I want them to look into first and foremost.
And maybe revisit some of the Strong Readers Act because I think that there's some things that we may need to look further in. I believe that it's going to have a great negative impact, from meeting with and speaking with teachers. Given the fact that all of our districts — meeting that third grade reading level, we have so many students that have already hit that and they're not there. So when school starts this next year, how many are we going to see in that retention pool? And we have to put monies there, additional monies to address those deficits in order to ensure that those students will move forward at the next school year.
Wallis: So do you think lawmakers got it wrong with the third grade reading retention portion? Or do there need to be more supports for those retained third graders?
Marshall: I believe there needs to be more support. I can definitely understand why they did it, but I believe that there is a part two for more support that needs to be taken care of through the legislature and then followed up with the State Department of Education, state superintendent.
Wallis: Because those third graders who are retained, they do end up qualifying for extra services and they get small group services and tutoring as well. So what other kinds of things do you think could be made available to them?
Marshall: They get those things. But after visiting the panhandle and some other rural areas — when we put legislation in place with all great intention, there are areas within this state that those resources don't exist within [the] community. And so that's the part of it that I'm seeing that we have to even look further, to understand that there are communities within the state that, even though it's there in writing, “We can do this,” [but] we don't have the people to do it.
And we have to figure out — You know, I spent several days in the panhandle. You had to really have a love to want to be in the Panhandle. I thought it was beautiful country. It was relaxing even though I was there working. But I'm old, so you get a high when you can go to a place and just see nothing but land and that relaxing sky. But younger people that are actually those support services individuals, how do you inspire them? How can you pay them enough to relocate themselves and their families to areas like that? Those are the conversations that need to take place.
Wallis: Voters may wonder why they should vote for someone who has never served in the classroom or as a school administrator. Do you think experience matters in the role of state superintendent?
Marshall: Experience absolutely matters. I have administrative experience. It is evidenced by the fact I worked within the Department of Corrections administratively. I have operated a business administratively, and I have also operated a 501 [(c)3]. And as a board member of the Tulsa Public Schools, I was charged with, as one, to administrate over an $8 million budget. It had made it up to about $8,000,000 as I was preparing to process out. I've shown myself a stable fiduciary.
When it comes to the other decisions made by the board, I was a very strong advocate for our teachers. And always making them feel included in decisions, because that has always been one of the complaints. “We're not included and you're making decisions for us to carry out in the classroom and we already know that curriculum won't connect. That program is not going to connect with my babies, my students.” So I have demonstrated my administrative ability.
The State Department is, what, about six billion dollars. And we need someone that knows how to take the money, use it wisely, and be an administrator and a true fiduciary over that. But we also need someone that believes in accountability and transparency. And they will act according to that. The two terms that I served successfully with Tulsa Public Schools operated under the acronym “ACT”: accountability, collaboration, transparency. I've demonstrated that I can do that and that's what it's going to take at the State Department.
Wallis: Governor Stitt has voiced his support for the Office of the State Superintendent becoming an appointed position rather than an elected one. Where do you fall on elected versus appointed?
Marshall: The position needs to remain an elected position.
Wallis: Why?
Marshall: It needs to remain an elected position because that is the last position when it comes to education that the public actually has a voice in. And if that is taken, school boards are elected, but let's face it. School boards, although nonpartisan, are very political. And board members in some areas, I'm not gonna put a generalized statement out, they operate in their ways of voting according to a hidden political agenda. And most times, those individuals that reside in the underserved area, their voices are not represented at the table. So you do have the state secretary of education. That's an appointed position. And then you turn around and you want to appoint the state superintendent. Where does the will of the people come in in that equation, when after all, education is serving the children to those constituents?
Wallis: The state school board is full of appointed positions. If Mike Mazzei were to become governor, he would be choosing those appointments. Are you concerned about the potential for deadlock between you and a board full of Mazzei appointees?
Marshall: Absolutely not. I'm not concerned because, as I continue to say, a part of that collaborative effort is having real conversations. Helping board members understand the hows and the whys and what will happen if we don't go that way, or what could happen if go a particular way when it comes to voting on issues that come before that board. Open communication.
I demonstrated that throughout my service on [the] Tulsa School Board. I received calls from Democratic legislators as well as Republican legislators, went and met for coffee, had discussions about things that they saw coming before the board and why I took a certain stance or what stance, or what stance would I be taking. Open, truthful, intentional conversations. That goes beyond party. It goes beyond, I'd say, election. It goes beyond appointment. It goes to the root of what we're all charged to do, and that is to make education better.
Wallis: One last question, why should Oklahomans vote for you over your opponent, Robert Franklin?
Marshall: Oklahoma should vote for me because I have demonstrated my capabilities. I have a passion to change education, to empower and provide services for our educators in order to empower our students to success. My actions stand and they can't be challenged because they're based in reality.
Wallis: Jennettie Marshall is the Democratic nominee for state superintendent. Thank you for joining me today.
Marshall: Thank you for having me.
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